Wednesday, April 26, 2006

Self Hating "Armenian"

Dear readers I usualy dont like to resort to personal insults but this Shoghig charachter has left me no choice. As you know because of her treacherous remarks on our blog I had to go into offensive in order to make sure that people know that constant Armenia and Armenian bashing for NO REASON BY ARMENIANS will not be tolarated. Here is her page and her last post regarding our conflict.

http://armenianaffairs.blogsome.com/2006/04/24/40/

Read it and read the posts before it here and on her page and you be the judge. Here is my response to her last post on April 25, 2006 @ 10:39 pm
Please respond to the post dont be shy, I want to see how other people think.


In my life I saw many types of people. That includes Armenians of all types and political backgrounds. But you, Shoghig, you belong to a very special, very unique, and THANK GOD very small group of diasporans that hate Armenia with passion. You are telling me to get of my high horse? I am not even on one, but you surely are. Please do not use words like “WE” and “OUR” when you talk about the Diaspora. Haters like you do not represent the will of the overwhelming number of the PROUD diaspora Armenians. How do I know that? Simple I lived with them in Armenia and I live with them here.

First things first; stop flip flopping. Decide what you want from your life. One day you want the help to Armenia to be stopped, the other day you want respect, then you say that you hate Armenia, but later say that you dont really hate it and you dont hate hayastantzis. WELL YOU HAVE TO SHOW RESPECT TO GET RESPECT, when you approach people with a mindset that you are better then them and that you are different then them don’t expect much respect. Stop the bullshit about how people looked down on your Western Armenian dialect, Armenians in Armenia are used to hearing that for many years now and no self-respecting Armenian will give a damn which Armenian you are using. Maybe you have some kind of paranoia, thinking that people around you hate you, see a doctor. You have absolutely nothing to say, no excuses, no reason for your hate of Armenia, so you just come up with this crap.

Let me tell you that you are bringing up an issue that has been long dead and buried; the issue of “aghpars” vs. locals. It was buried because locals emigrated and kind of became “aghpars” themselves. Now its more of the opposite, it’s some of the first and second generation Armenians who by their thinking belong to your class, that go around talking how they don’t like the newcomers because the newcomers achieve all what they, the first and second generation Armenians, could not achieve in so many years. But again thank God that these type of diaspora “Armenians” don’t show their ugly heads around too much.

Want to know the story of why the whole “aghpars” vs. locals verbal beef started? I can tell you because unlike your family, which for some weird reason did not want to talk about this, my “aghpar” and local family told me about it. You see when Armenians started to return to THEIR homeland near the end of WW2, Soviet Armenia, they usually came from places where people lived relatively better than Armenians in Armenia. That was obvious because Soviet Armenia was in war and no other Allied country suffered as much as USSR did, so the goods and a good education were scarce. Some of the newcomers (norekogh) started to act in a same way that you and some other diaspora Armenians act today, they started to look down upon the locals, calling them uneducated, unmannered, and all kinds of other stupid stuff like “giughatsi hayastantsi” (hey just like now days). It is true that lots of Armenians in Armenia were uneducated, poor, and sometimes even lacked manners, but hey these guys just barely came out of a horrible war plus Stalin’s repressions were still hanging over their heads. So the locals started to fight back, mainly making fun of the newcomers’ dialect, where the new comers could not use the word AGHPER (brother) correctly and instead called each other AGHPAR, hence newcomer and aghpar became synonyms, although people knew that calling newcomers aghpar was derogatory. This social feud started to calm down year by year as newcomers and locals intermarried and finally it disappeared in the 90’s as people started to emigrate and ex locals now became “aghpars” themselves. These type of social feuds happen all the time everywhere, just ask what a Northern Italian thinks about the Southern Italian, or East German about a West German or vice versa. That of course does not make it correct but it is part of human nature and there is nothing that you, with your inadequate brain, can do about it.

STOP TALKING IN THE NAME OF THE DIASPORA. I and Levon (a typical non Dashnak diasporan) can’t agree on a lot of things, but Levon and the overwhelming majority of diaspora Armenians know one thing, they have a homeland, and they are proud of it. True that the homeland is ruled by toilet wipes but at least we have a homeland, that is what makes a diaspora a Diaspora. Otherwise we would have been like the Assyrians, Gypsies, or like the Kurds; just groups of people spread around the world with nothing binding. You want to talk and write in your own dialect while in Armenia and you accuse Armenia of “killing” Western Armenian, go ahead nobody is holding you back, just use Eastern Armenian in your official communications. Well missy I studied BRITISH English in Armenia but here in US I had to adopt and learn US English. I think British English sounds better and US English is easier and sometimes it butchers words for sake of easiness, but hey I accepted it and moved on. You and your kind, who are a minority, want to tell the majority what language to speak. Eastern Armenian (which is used for 120+ years IN THE EASTERN ARMENIAN TERRITORY, that’s what I meant you mongrel I know the history of “my” Armenia) became mainstream thanks to writers like Khatchatour Abovian who in the 1800’s was the first Armenian writer to use it, yes way before Armenia became communist. Besides with whatever evil they did, Communists did a lot of good too and the modernization of Eastern Armenian in my and the opinions of many millions was one of those good things (since it was not forceful but scientific). My “aghpar” grand parents still use Western Armenian and my grandfather still uses it to write letters, its just he was not lazy and he learned both and never bitched about it. Whenever he wrote a letter to his sister in France he used the Western Armenian, whenever he had to communicate within Armenia he used Eastern Armenian, easy as that. Languages are made NATIONAL so people in that particular country know which language to use in official correspondence. Armenia chose Eastern Armenian, because JUST INTERNALY we have more dialects than we have hair on our heads. If each dialect started writing in their own way YOU would never understand what the other Armenian wants from you. Ever hear Karabakh street talk? Good luck understanding that if you are a diaspora Armenian. Hence we have a unified language so we can communicate easily and be united by that common language. Armenians need as much unity as they can get.

You talk about getting the Western Armenian lands as if I have something against gaining OUR (yes not yours, because you Shoghig are a nothing) lands back. Hey the more the merrier plus WE get access to sea. Remember it was you who insulted Armenian national pride in your first post on our blog not I. Gaining land back is a pretty nationalistic rhetoric Shoghig. It’s just funny when you say that “you” will see “yourself” in Western Armenia tomorrow. If that ever happens, do you think it’s going to be your useless ass and the useless asses of your kind sitting at the negotiation table or it is going to be the diplomats from Republic of Armenia, the entity that the world recognizes as the sole homeland and representative of Armenians on this planet? Are you and the oh so small group of mongrel idiots going to march into Western Armenia and build the infrastructure which the region lacks? NO YOU ARE NOT! It is going to be done under the patronage of Republic of Armenia ( since only a government has the resources and the manpower to annex or get back a territory) with the help from the diaspora, that’s how things are done and always should be done. Judging from your poison talk you are probably also happy that our church is divided in to two parts, in your eyes the job is half way done.

I cant believe that I wasted so many man hours and nerves on a SEPARATIST, SELF HATING, WORM like you. You will never understand what being proud of what and who you are is. It is just very sad that you are going to inject your poison inside the pure minds of those kids that you teach. Thus making your personal hate problem that has no base and no merit their problem. SELFISH and DISGUSTING.

P.S.

Listen I can tell you a way that some say can guarantee you life in Western Armenia in the very near future. How about you convert to Hinduism, because they believe in reincarnation, then go and get killed for some good cause, then get reincarnated as a GOAT or a SHEEP in the Western Armenia. Since that is what the local Yezdis keep in the current Western Armenian territory goats, sheeps, and cows, oh maybe you should turn into a cow, that will work too.

138 comments:

sarcastictothebone said...

hey give her a break man, she is pissed because armenians are getting each others nerves lately and always and being such a self centered creatures, we always try to inflict pain to other armenians just because they don't belong to our little political circle or don't share out own beliefs or u name it , but this is sooooo childish when we will realize at the end of the day we all belong to the same nation and have the same golas in life even if the means of gtetting that goal is different we have to build on our commonalities and not dwel on the differences.....

but if you read between the lines she is a proprietor of armenia but she is just going through that phase where we go through when we get stabbed from our back by an armenian fellow , the one's we procliam to be our natioanl comrads .....

arman u stop increasing her furry because that can lead to negative extremist standpoint which u don't wanna get urself into. be a true armenain and deal with the issue in a humane way!

Arman said...

Dear sarcastictothebone jan,

I dont belong to any small political group nor I will ever do. I tried to reason with her, but she kept saying crap like "I hate Armenia" and "Armenians massacred Azeris" that I can not take. deal with DUMB DISGUSTING Armenians EVERY day. I get ashamed that those mongrels call themselves Armenian, but at the end of the day I am still proud of who I am.
If she is going through a phase she should watch what she is saying online, especialy on the Armenian blogs. The reasons are obvious, one I will not tolarate such level of Armenian bashing on my blog second she makes the Turk and Azeri propagandists happy. Those guys would give up their liver just to have a Armenian call his/her own people murderers of women children. It is sad but we have to think twice before we write or say something online or in the public.

I hope that you are right and that this is a phase, and tanks for the comment.

Arman said...

Wow, I never had a such a long and wasteful conversation online. But it taught me something, a person who is still like a kid (no matter the age) even if reads complex literature, is still a kid. This Shoghig person is an extreme introvert, and she is just a kid, a 20 something year old kid. She needs to grow and she needs to develop as a person. Its too bad that it took me this much time to figure the whole thing out. Just the way how she was inconsistent and how she jumped from subject to subject should have been a sign. Anyways she needs to grow up.

Anonymous said...

I am glad that you came to that conclusion, and that we can move on to more important issues. Like the fact that the Glendale News Press has been filled lately with ignorant comments against Armenians. It would be great if we could respond to these and teach these people to not be so ignorant. That would be time better spent, since we have to live in the same town with these people who make decisions on our daily lives.
Two recent opinions have been put up by David Lee Williams, "Turkey is an ally":

"In spite of al this "anit-Turkish" feeling during Armenian Genocide day, we "Ameircans" should always remmeber Turkey is a friend and an ally to the US. Without their help, the "free world," just might be living under the hammer and sickle of the late Soviet Union."

And Trent D. Sanders, "Reasons for injustice must be publicized" on Thursday's paper:

"Despite Turkish denials, the Armenian Genocide did occur. But a question that hasn't been addressed is why? It's doubtful the Turks were sitting around one evening with nothing on TV and the bowling alley closed, so they decided to kill several million Armenians out of sheer boredom. Had the Armenians done some injustice to the Truks? There must have been a reason. What was that reason?"

These are people we have to live with in this town, so let's spend our time responding to these ignorant people, and educate them please.

sarcastictothebone said...

hey Arman you should be a more mature about things like that i know what you're saying totally makes sense to you, but she is a teenager and the more you give attention into that kind of stuff the more you provoke her to act negatively to the other extreme , please watch your language sometimes you're using loaded words whih can hurt other people's feelings this is not professional since you're just asking people to act professionally , you can be an example and act in that manner to guide them through, besides if you guys fight on the web you are giving insentives to ur enemy and they are scoring marks big time on our expense , gush! what if a small kid says something she doesn't even mean it , maybe she wasn't thinking clearly , you go on arguing and making a big deal out of it , definitly noooooooooooooo ! i hate seeing u guys fight , i want us to help eachother to achieve one goal, our goal together and thats what we should do !

sarcastictothebone said...

another thing there are some armenian websites i can't post a message can u make access possible for me

Arman said...

Wow anonymous,

Thanks for the post. I totaly missed these reports thanks for bringing them up. I will search for them in Google in order to read them in full. Last time Glendale press had a big anti Armenian campaign was a year ago. The whole threat of the ARMENIAN MAFFIA (medical office/supply owners). They had the first page filled with the pictures of wanted Armenians.
But thanks again for the very informative comment.
What do you think WE as Armenans can do? Protest, write to the paper, or something else? Because both of the quotes I see here are FAULTY in their logic (i.e. Turkey did not do much for the Cold War, and THERE was a reason why we were killed).

Arman said...

sarcastictothebone,

Dude as I said I thought I was talking to a mature 20 year old, hence my wording.

Arman said...

Anonymous ooops I misunderstood your post a little, I thought this were editorial opinions, but they were reader comments, not that bad, but yeah not good either.

Yeah these people are our neighbors and we must live with them, and some might dislike Armenians because of the way that some of us behave in public, but we have to teach them somehow that we are good people and our cause in no way hearts theirs. I just cant think of a way, but this is a good discussion topic for our frat, we might come up with some event that makes these people understand us better.

sarcastictothebone said...

i totally agree that we must do some events to cgange their perspective on us and present the real cause that we all share and fight for, what do you people suggest as events ? i mean if we target the media and present our message through that can affect the audience or the outsiders, another issues the discussion pannels are also effective means , what do you suggest ?

Arman said...

See I dont want us to go out with guns blazing censoring evrything bad that is said or written about us. Yes it can effectively block anti Armenian speech, but then it will make the public more suspecious of us. I mean Jews do that, try saying ANYTHING bad (even if the author is right) about the jews in the media, and you will see what happens. But that way they get more enemies. Hence I dont know what would be a good way to make sure that we dont get such responses about the Armenians by "otars".
I think if a Armenian organisation with good resources can gather these people and do a nice and fun presentation, these guys will start to understand us better.

Remember Westerners, and ESPECIALLY American GENERAL PUBLIC, will beleive that 1+1=35 if it is presented with a whole shbang and eyecandy, while if you present 1+1=2 as a boring fact they will ignore it. I guess I am saying we need to get together a somekind of energetic propaganda campaign, and I am pretty sure that I can find people to help out with that cause.

Anonymous said...

Well responding to the opinions, would be a start. I mean everytime something like this happens in the paper, the ANC jumps on it, but why does it have to be an organization. Why can't just the regular armenian respond, in an educating manner.

I mean since that day, two Americans have responded saying that we need more educational programs, because it seems that we still have people who don't know what is going on. So I guess that is the answer, have your cultural stuff on April 24th, but more importantly have educational, informative stuff that odars can go to. Don't just plan it for Armenians. Have your separate "I am proud to be Armenian" events, that Armenians go to. But also have things like they have in the Alex every year that gets the community together, it is free of charge, and the commemoration is more of an educating experience for non-Armenians.

Concerned said...

I did not read your post completly because this akhpar/hayastanci talk is getting old and boring. But one thing struck me< i saw it repeated several times. That hayastanci were uneducated compared to the akhpar arriving at the 40's. They might been poor, but excuse me. Soviet Armenia in general is much more educated that the Diaspora. Particularly those akhpars who arrived at that time were coming mostly from relatively poor families from Arabic countries and Iran. Generally it is not correct to speak in those terms. Just Armenians are very different because each of them bears influence of host or dominant country where they live.

Arman said...

Yeah responding to editorials is a good start, and having special education presetations in Alex sounds pretty good. But we will need an organization that does it since I as anindividual do not have the resoures to rent Alex out. But yeah I see what are you saying.

Arman said...

Dear concerned,

I know that Soviet Armenians were well educated, I lived there, but when the Armenians from the diaspora started to return during and after the war, MOST hayastantzis were not university educated. Because of the war and the mentality. Later in mid 50's the university mania started.

sarcastictothebone said...

concerned ...
we're not trying to discriminate here between eastern and western armenians right ? who is more educated .... this is not a criteria to judge people with , we are talking about isssues on how to unite armenians ,to break that wall between them and join them together , cause collaboration is a key to success, we need to find commonalities rather than differences, we all belong to the same nation right ?

we all want this but yet for one reason or the other become proprietors of one ideology and get involved in organizations, but should not be a hinderance to us, just the opposite being part of an organization we can provide extra input to the whole.

We just need to join forces , maybe by being a member to an organization we can bring certain credentials, we can participate in the larger frame by adding more capital on it , armenians are smart nation ONLY they need to know how to collaborate effectively and efficiently to make the best net result.

arman i totally agree with your idea about organizing educational events , as someone mentioned, i second his ideas that we need to make it for armenians and for non-armenians too cause we want international recognition of our cause; since we mostly deal using functionalistic apporach, so lets start with that and educate other about that.

Concerned said...

I am not sure about this untiy though. Culturally I think it is our richness. We have not only Armenian diverse and rich culture but we also have french/russina/american singers and composers, political figures playing a significant role in other copuntries etc.
What you suggest to unite around? Robert Kocharian's governmnent? Church? Genocide Recognition?
I dont think there is apparent goal. I think ruling clique in Armenia needs strong opposition, not united support. I think after establishment of Armenian State, church should not play big role in social life. Genocide recognition is of course very important, but her also diversity of approaches and tactics are needed. Let us just be Armenian with all variety and cosmopolitan value that it bears.

SAM said...

Ok I really liked this post, This is the first time I am on your page, the post you had was well written.
I think that if an Armenian can say "I hate Armenia" no matter how the situation in Armenia is at that time, that person is arrogant to the bone no matter how old that person is. I dont really know what that girl has written, I didnt read, but hating Armenia or the Hayastancis is not really the way to go.
I am a mix of axhpar and a local, I am considered a local in the diaspora - did that confuse you? But this is the situation of many Armenians and we have to deal with it and move on. If we can move on at a younger age, then we'll have brighter adultful.
I like this page... Nice job.

gayzag palandjian said...

I don't know how I landed here,but after reading a few of the posts,especially the first long one(in response to the girl/woman,I wish to add a few IMPORTANT MATTERS.No doubt some of you good kids know it already but in case some don't...
1. We, thanks God, are no more just a "Pueblo", people, BUT A NATION/STATE.
2. After 6/700 years of being a subded"Ermeni" second class SUBJECTS of Ottoman Turkey,NOW a proud Independent Republic of Armenia(3rd one),i.e. the 2nd one also to be considered as such.
3.Having liberated just one Province of Integral Armenia, Artsakh,- which anyway NEVER was a part of Azerbaijan,but placed under their supervision -(country that never existed prior to 1918-when, artificially created by the British , when their troops were there-(Read prof. Richard Hovhannissian's 4 volume Republic of Armenia,please)And later, by Lenin-Stalin- hopefull of getting the turks-Turkey on their band wagon,i.e., sovietizing them as well,-granted not only NK/Artskah but Nakhijevan aso-latter declared as a Republic- to Azeri supervision.Thence,we must realize thatOTHER PEOPLE ALSO,take Spain, that was ruled under N.African arab Khaliphate for 6 Centures but aspired for independence and thanks to A spanish Princess-later becoming (declared herself) Queen -IZABEL LA CATTOLICA-who united the princes-much like the Armenian princes... they were not united- DROVE THE invading arabs out of Spain.Armenians are IN THEIR RIGHT THEREFORE,(LET THE WHOLE WORLD KNOW THIS PART OF SPANISH HISTORY)- TO ASPIRE FOR TOTAL INTEGRAL ARMENIA-Bear in mind that kurds lived alongside us for millenia ,therefre unlike turks we must not think they are to be driven out-some 12 million or so, on part of the 6 villayets-can be there alongside us- their future Kurdistan territoy-alongsde us.NOW, they have tasted the turkish yoke /brutality.. for long and had their hundreds of villages burnt out by turkish troops.They do understand us .....
En resumen;-
Be TOLERANT, COOPERATIVE.with ea other nevermind what political, faith or Regional differences you have ,like the French people- who have extreme left, extreme right and all kinds of faith etc., THEY BECOME ONE WHEN FACED WITH INTERNATIONL CONFLICTS.....
GETZZE HAYASTAN /ARTSAKH AND TO PRESERVE OUR ARMENITY IN DIASPORA,MAKE IT STRONG AND DO GO TO ARMENIA/ARTSAKH TO WORK THERE A BIT...I HAVE ADVOCATED THAT IF THE ARMENIAN YOUNG GO SERVE ARMENIA 2 YEARS in any Gov. dept.,they are entitled to citizenship,Others older who stay five yrs and/or establish Biz and stay ... go back and forth also entitled. One more thing if you do have time enter my web site now and then and see how I ON TOP OF IT Upgrade the Armenian young. My web site?
www.ARMENIDAD-WORLDWIDE.ORG,
thanks for reading me....
Hamahaigagani SIRO,
g.p

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